Curse

Vinraith · Jan 26, 2008, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Many RPG's lack skill trees, but GW is the only one I've ever played where attribute points and skill selection are completely fluid and changeable.

As to GW "not being an RPG," in the gaming industry "RPG" is not defined the same way it is in pen and paper. Someone coming to the PvE game with no preconceptions would likely define GW as an action RPG, based on the game play.

Biostem · Jan 26, 2008, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Hacking monsters in a blah storyline before moving on to PvP or farming.

If GW was an RPG I would have killed polo joker, defeated the charr, livia would not be one of my heroes, and neither would what's his face charrboy.

There are currently no truly free-form CRPGs, (computer role playing games), and as such you can't actually do whatever you want. Since this is also a multiplayer game, and assuming it was free-form, any decent GM would shut down your ability to alter the plot in such overarching ways. If it was a solo game, then I'd say sure, go ahead and completely rewrite the story...

Either way, the current implementation of GW is very friendly to someone who wants to experiment w/ different builds, and is especially forgiving to someone who may take a skill thinking it's very useful at 1 part of the game, but near useless later on. I much prefer GW's system over more level-restricted ones like old school D&D.

Bryant Again · Jan 26, 2008, 09:56 PM // 21:56

No it isn't.

Redfeather1975 · Jan 26, 2008, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Guild Wars is kinda like the card game Magic:The Gathering except some differences.

You simply need to find a skill trainer and he'll have a collection of 'cards' you can buy to add to your deck. His cards don't require being a certain level or having a certain stat to buy them.
When you want to go out to an instance you put a 'hand' together out of the deck of cards you have created so far.
You are never arbitrarily told you can only use a certain skill by being a certain level, main profession, or having certain stats. Some skills are even more advantageous in certain builds by purposely using them at 0 attribute points.

I honestly know of no other online rpg game that does that, but I haven't played that many games. I haven't even played the M:TG online game. In every online rpg I've played you don't have the freedom I've seen in Guild Wars in how you make your character. I'd never be able to take a crowd control style profession, such as mesmer or ranger in GW, in another game and function as any type of healer, but in GW I could.

GrimEye · Jan 26, 2008, 10:20 PM // 22:20

GW is like a dolphin, it's not a fish, but lives on water. Or a bat, which is not a bird, but can fly.

I hope that confuses more what GW is or not is.

Anyway, I like the concept that GW does not use a skill tree structure. It greatly lessens the skill grinding than actually using the skills, and the grind of re-creating characters.

My take.

Craywulf · Jan 26, 2008, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Why are there people insistent on telling us GW is not a RPG? How does saying its a RPG put things wrong for those naysayers? Do you realize that the term RPG is a vague and all encompassing description of game-play.

GW isn't the first game to be untraditional in its genre, One can say Everquest isn't a RPG compared to Ultima Online. Just as World of Warcraft isn't the same as those that came before it.

The RPG genre will continue to evolve to broader style and methods, but basic tenet of RPG is to have a character, story, and challenge.

theblackmage · Jan 26, 2008, 11:45 PM // 23:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

2. EVE ONLINE...

I assume you mean that EVE does not have a tree system, but in a limited sense it does. For example, you can't learn how to fly a Titan of a particular race until you max the capital ships skill, max the battleship skill of that race AND max the leadership skill, with Capital Ships and [Race] Battleship having their own skill requirements to learn. Hardly a non-tree based game.

One game that combines character customization comparable to GW (ie. no skill trees) is an old game called Asheron's Call. Unfortunately, it suffers from grind-based problems that Longasc described, last I checked. (ie. trying to get the big numbers representing your skills even bigger via grind)

~ Dan ~ · Jan 26, 2008, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

I remember doing that on D2 once, got my necro to level 80ish until i found out i wasted 20 points on skills that were never used and useless.

Indeed, the thing with skill trees is: you have to plan your character completely. Choose which skill line to take, attribute spread, take into account any attribute boosts from gear etc. As a newbie, you wouldn't know any of this, which means you have to remake your char with a proper plan 2+ times

cloudbunny · Jan 27, 2008, 01:52 AM // 01:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevin

Deck of skills, bring 8, etc etc. Rock paper scissor it out.

Reminds me of a friend who said Doom is just like Packman with some fancy graphics.

"You run around in a labyrinth picking up stuff and hiding from ghosts, occasionally you pick up nice things that make you you able to kill them."

Regards,
Cloudbunny

HawkofStorms · Jan 27, 2008, 03:04 AM // 03:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craywulf

Why are there people insistent on telling us GW is not a RPG? How does saying its a RPG put things wrong for those naysayers? Do you realize that the term RPG is a vague and all encompassing description of game-play.

GW isn't the first game to be untraditional in its genre, One can say Everquest isn't a RPG compared to Ultima Online. Just as World of Warcraft isn't the same as those that came before it.

The RPG genre will continue to evolve to broader style and methods, but basic tenet of RPG is to have a character, story, and challenge.

Exactly. RPG is a broad definition, and is the closest thing you can use for GW.

Is GW a first person shooter? No.
Is GW a puzzle game? No.
Is GW a real time strategy game? No.

Is GW a RPG? Yes. Well, it's more of an RPG then it is any of those other classifications.

Alex the Great · Jan 27, 2008, 03:16 AM // 03:16

short and sweet k

skill trees suck

attribute points are teh awesomes

the end

Bryant Again · Jan 27, 2008, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by cloudbunny

Reminds me of a friend who said Doom is just like Packman with some fancy graphics.

"You run around in a labyrinth picking up stuff and hiding from ghosts, occasionally you pick up nice things that make you you able to kill them."

Why are you running away from them? In Doom you have no excuse. You have a shotgun, use it or you're a pansy.

MithranArkanere · Jan 27, 2008, 04:21 AM // 04:21

The better PvE-game is that where you can get everything maxed, until just you gaze can kill enemies, XD.

If you think about it, the closest game to GW when it comes to rules it's Pokemon:

- It's an RPG.
- But you are not RPGing much...
- Most of the time you save the day by wacking someone.
- You can finish it without reading a single text line.
- You have finish certain missions to gain access to other areas.
- Some skills have additional effects that affect the environment (well, actually... only Ligh of deldrimor, XD)
- And some other times you have to wack something.
- You can 'get all skills'.
- You only have a limited set of skills at the same time.
- You can change the skills you bring only in certain places.
- From Yak's Bend to Augury Rock, parties of 6, XDD.

Antheus · Jan 27, 2008, 04:35 AM // 04:35

RPG in computer games became an abstraction for DnD-like games, mechanics for MMOs evolved from MUDs, most notably DikuMUD, individual elements were mostly defined by Everquest.

Core concepts that define computer RPGs
1) Character progression through levels and experience points
2) Various allocatable pools (attributes, skill points, talents)
3) Combat (determined primarily by dice roll)
4) Avatar customization

2 and 3 are by far the most defining factors of computer RPG. Even if you have only 5 pools with 10 points to spend them between, that's enough.

Reasoning for this is that unlike Doom, where you *are* the character, RPGs allow you to pretend to be the character. In Doom, if you suck at shooting, you die. In RPG, you pretend to be good at shooting by "training" your shooting skill, and become a sniper.

Ironically, almost all balance problems, as well as abuse of grind, come from the very nature of RPG, and how original DnD design is completely unsuitable for player-vs-player situations.

bigtime102 · Jan 27, 2008, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Evey single game ever made is a RPG.
/thread

Kashrlyyk · Jan 27, 2008, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

Exactly. RPG is a broad definition, and is the closest thing you can use for GW.

Is GW a first person shooter? No.
Is GW a puzzle game? No.
Is GW a real time strategy game? No.

Is GW a RPG? Yes. Well, it's more of an RPG then it is any of those other classifications.

For me it is closer to a FPS! There are just too little choices to make it close to a RPG.
But for most people levels, attributes and skills defines a RPG.

Quote:

Originally Posted by graywulf

basic tenet of RPG is to have a character, story, and challenge.

From the Wizardry Archives manual: "Role playing is just as it sounds. You play the role of something someone other than yourself. Just like professional actors and actress, you pretend to be a character acting and reacting to situations as he or she would."

The only situations you face in GW and in FPS are fights.
The situations you face in an RPG are more complex. Diplomacy, stealing, solving puzzles etc. In order to play a character you have to be able to make choices, that show who that character is: What are his believes? His intentions and so on. You have absolutely no choice in GW. After prophecies you can´t even choose where you want to go.
And what Antheus said: "Reasoning for this is that unlike Doom, where you *are* the character, RPGs allow you to pretend to be the character. In Doom, if you suck at shooting, you die. In RPG, you pretend to be good at shooting by "training" your shooting skill, and become a sniper."

Rhedd · Jan 27, 2008, 11:14 AM // 11:14

On the subject of whether or not GW is an RPG (yeah, it probably is, technically)...

I realized the other day that GW is the only game I know of where you get to pick who you are, but the game forces you to say a certain thing in every plot-related cutscene.

Usually, there are two types of games:

Games where you don't get any real roleplaying choices, but it's okay because you're playing a certain pre-determined character. (Like Cloud in FFVII.)

Games where you pick who you are (your name and what you look like), and during conversations you pick from at least two options for what to say and how to react. (Like Neverwinter Nights.)

GW seems unique, however, in letting you pick exactly who you are, but whether you're a shy young monk from Cantha, or a scarred, hardnosed old veteran from the ruins of Ascalon, you're still going to hero-worship Togo and try unnecessarily to comfort the Norn, no matter what you want to do.

I think this is where the "RPG" element of GW really fails.

freekedoutfish · Jan 27, 2008, 12:43 PM // 12:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

For me it is closer to a FPS! There are just too little choices to make it close to a RPG.

Your opinion!

This mine....

Lets compare Halo, to Hellgate London to Guild Wars very quickly!

Halo is a blatent FPS because all you do is change weapons and kill things in a linia (cant spell as you all know) fashion throughout the entire game. There is no moving away from the set path. You are given one character, who you has a name and cant be changed and you just control them.

Hellgate: London uses a FPS (notice shooter) perspective or a 3rd person perspective but in a FPS style. But it also incorporates armor changing, skills, spell, a points system and levels and PUGing. You also have the choice to move to any area you want to at any point and kill what ever you wish (provided you have unlocked that area). Hellgate London is a cross-breed between FPS and RPG... and it works well. You also build your own character instead of using a pre-made person you control.

Guild Wars has no FPS perspective in the true sense, but your still kiling stuff in some way. If you zoom in you don't see your weapon in hand as you would Halo or Hellgate. You do have the 3rd person perspective, but that is standard perspective in all games when not using first person perspective. Guild Wars has even more flexibility compared to hellgate london where you do as you want, kill what you want, farm and buy what you want (again provided you have unlocked those areas) and customise all aspects of your character.

You could argue any game where you kill someone is an FPS because you are killing stuff using a weapon or spell or skill to do it. Oblivion has a FPS perspective if you zoom in, WoW you can zoom in for that perspective. You could use the FPS arguement for most games of any type.

Its what distinguises the game beyond that "killing aspect" which matters, and GuildWars goes much further then just "kill kill kill". We have character leveling, skill and spell learning and buying, attribute points to spend to build a good build. Armor with varied stats to benefit those builds if need be.

We can customise our characters in most aspects when creating them, and then later when buying armor and weapons and dye. You have 3 large islands to explore with full freedom to do so (provided you find those areas first).

This is what distinguises GWs from being more then just a FPS in the kill, kill, kill sense!

If Guild Wars was just a FPS we would just be given a set character at the start and be told to follow a set path, no variation, do these things one after another and dont go back and once your finished thats is.

But we're not! You build the character you want and do as you want. Yes there is a storyline to follow, but you can do as you want while you follow that.

But you cant say to other people "This is catergorically not an RPG because I cant cross that mountain over there, or because I cant kill that really annoying character on that wall". Games have to have some limits, otherwise it looses its train of thought and people wander off and loose themselves.

Its good to have a storyline and some edges to the game, which force you in a set direction. But to still have enough freedom to feel its a real world, which you can do as you wish in. And GWs offers that and is an RPG because of it IMO!

For GWs to be what you define as an RPG, the game would have to be the size of an entire planet and allow you to kill every and any creature and NPC you come in contact with. It would need to have the sun rise in the morning and the moon rise at night, and have storms which ripped trees up and sun which dried the ground out. You would need to train your character up from being a sperm until they died as an old man.

Im sure that would be an interesting game, but it would be HUGE!!!

Limits are needed on RPGs or they just get a bit insain.

Bryant Again · Jan 27, 2008, 05:31 PM // 17:31

An FPS is largely about how well you play and your personal skill in the game. In an RPG, it has more to do with how well you build your character. That's why I definantly think GW falls into the latter.